Cobb

I have consistently said that what these people say have no material value.

How many black folk listen and read Malkin, Barber, and unfortunately Ambra that take them seriously on issues like this?

Fact is only a small percentage do, and that small percentage is the group that tends to hold those persuasions anyway so in effect they are preaching to the choir.

Which brings us to whom there real audience is, white people.

I personally believe that we do not need to defend Kwanzaa from white people, they have not demonstrated themselves worthy to have us defend what we do to them. In fact, it should be the opposite based upon history, in that they should be defending what they do to us.

In the end, although I don't celebrate Kwanzaa, I 100% support and respect those who do based upon the nature and the structure of the holiday itself.

Ironically, these same whites, Filipino's, and blacks who seek to debase the holiday based upon Karenga, in turn offer nothing material to elevate blacks themselves, other than to say, "Dem negra's is bad and need ta change".

So I will roll with you on this on.

It appears that Kwanzaa is more of a Black Pride movement than a religious celebration. From Kwanzaa's beginning and its association with the Black Panther movement, Marxism, and Anti-American philosophies, the goals of Kwanzaa appear to be Anti-Christian. Historical documents and statements from Kwanzaa's founder appear to reaffirm a movement based more in afro-centric politics and less in deeply held religious beliefs.

I pose this question to myself: If Jerry Falwell's Baptist ministry would have viscously attacked another race of people and denounced Christianity as spookism, would he have a ministry today? I suggest he would be out of the ministry business.

America, what a wonderful country. It is a place where the founder of Kwanzaa can still have a Kwanzaa ministry at UCLA preaching his Marxist and Anti-American ideas. God Bless America.

Thank you so much for this.

So far, I have been mostly amused by the thought of Whites and others for whom Kwanzaa is a relatively new discovery imagining Black families sitting around the kinara discussing Marxism and anti-capitalism and plotting to overthrow the government. That is just so far beyond the experience of ALL Blacks celebrating Kwanzaa that I have ever known about.

Oh well. I am glad I decided to return to blogging about Kwanzaa this year. I may not be changing views of those with already negative attitudes about the celebration, but hopefully I am doing my part to balance the blogospheric universe a little bit.

"the goals of Kwanzaa appear to be Anti-Christian"?

The goals of Kwanzaa are not anti-Christian, otherwise I, as a Christian wouldn't celebrate it. Kwanzaa had no association with the Black Panthers. In fact one of the reasons for Karenga's troubles was that he fell out with the Panthers and ran a rival organization, which by the way was by definition non-militant. The Panthers carried guns, US refused that. Karenga wasn't Marxist until after Kwanzaa was launched.

What is anti-American about black pride? And since you distinguish a cultural holiday from a religious one and see that Kwanzaa isn't religious, how does that make it anti-Christian?

(US did carry guns. You remember the shootout don't you?)

Why does it have to be religious in orientation? How many American holidays are 'religious'. Most of them in fact are not.

Secondly, there is nothing inherently anti-christian about Kwanzaa, in fact, I would argue many of the principles of Kwanzaa are distinctly closer to biblical Christianity than our modified eurocentric version of it today.

Give it up man. Stop trying to rewrite history. Karenga was a racist piece of filth who created that kwanzaa garbage to advance his hate for whites and the nation as a whole. He hated God and called Christianity a myth. The seven tenets of kwanzaa are socio-communist in nature and have NOTHING to do with Black people coming together. Socialist in nature so much that the seven heads of the cobra symbol of the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA) are the EXACT SAME as the seven tenets of kwanzaa and their mission was the overthrow of the US government.

You cannot separate Karenga from the holiday.

Let it go man.

By the way, you will be fighting people like me. I actually TEACH Black children the TRUE history of kwanzaa and why it is such and insideous evil.

Assuming you are college educated, Raymond, would you repudiate your alma mater and degree if it could be proven that any of your professors was an atheist? Over here we believe that the value of knowledge does not attach itself permanently to teachers, but has its own intrinsic worth.

I have no desire to rewrite history, in fact, I am happy to represent what I know to be true, which is what this is all about. You may have been convinced that people who celebrate Kwanzaa bow down and worship Karenga but that is an ignorant myth, a lie. You may feel confident in teaching lies to black children, but that's your business.

You speak of all the seven tenets of Kwanzaa as if you understand them, their intent or even their names. How do you expect to teach out of such ignorance? What, pray tell, is socio-communist about Kuumba?

Assuming you can read my very large header, you would know that I am pro-capitalist. How could I possibly be celebrating something 'socio-communist'? I think you need to take a few minutes and clear the cobwebs, bro.

Raymond, your resignation papers should be submitted post haste. Use electronic media, it's faster. Why don't you sell cars or something? Your pernicious tone and lack of understanding suggest you're ill-equipped for your current profession.

I'm glad to see a few positive comments on kwanzaa and i'm glad to see that some people are having a more nuanced take on the holiday. I wouldn't say I'm "celebrating" the holiday in any sense but I am planning on blogging a little on each principle.

Something I suggested for next year was that people who plan on blogging positively on kwanzaa could maybe link up somehow...

I agree that one has to seperate kwanzaa from karenga. The validity and worth of the principles is a totally seperate question from karenga's behavior.

Personally I don't think I "celebrate" kwanzaa but I am interested in trying to think about, reflect on, unpack and apply the Nguzo Saba.

In terms of whether Kwanzaa is anti-Christian or not I think that depends entirely on how one understands Christianity and understands the Nguzo Saba.

There have definitely been some cultural nationalists who, at least in the past, have seen the Nguzo Saba as a rival to the 10 commandments and are trying to create a black values system which is an alternative to "white Judeo-Christian civilization".

But if you look at the actual 7 principles they promote some unambiguously positive values which few Christians could really object to.

May I respectfully argue that Kwanzaa is linked to Karenga. And, Karenga's criminal past, Marxist views, and his desire for a bloody revolution in America, makes for interesting reading. I would like to seperate his teachings from Kwanzaa.

However, Kwanzaa and Karenga are linked. Hopefully, he has changed his thinking. And, I wonder if he has repented and moved past his troubled start.

I have the following questions. First, does Karenga still believe his writings in "Quotable Karenga". In his Path of Blackness, which is detailed in his Quotable Karenga: "The sevenfold path of blackness is think black, talk black, act black, create black, buy black, vote black, and live black."

Second, I wonder if Karenga still thinks living in a Marxist country is better than living in America.

Third, A few years ago, Karenga was in dire need of psychiatic care as determined by the State of California. "Karenga was sentenced to one-to-ten years in prison on counts of felonious assault and false imprisonment. At his trial, the question arose as to Karenga'’s sanity. The psychiatrist'’s report stated: "“This man now represents a picture which can be considered both paranoid and schizophrenic with hallucinations and illusions, inappropriate affect, disorganization, and impaired contact with the environment.” The psychiatrist reportedly observed that Karenga talked to his blanket and imaginary persons, and he believed he'’d been attacked by dive-bombers." I wonder if he has received treatment and is he still in therapy.

Fourth, Karenga explained in his 1977 Kwanzaa: Origin, Concepts, Practice, "Kwanzaa is not an imitation, but an alternative, in fact, an oppositional alternative to the spookism, mysticism and non-earth based practices which plague us as a people and encourage our withdrawal from social life rather than our bold confrontation with it." The holiday "was chosen to give a Black alternative to the existing holiday and give Blacks an opportunity to celebrate themselves and history rather than simply imitate the practice of the dominant society." I wonder if he still thinks that Christianity is spookism?

In conclusion, I think the redemption of mankind is a wonderful blessing. We have all stumbled and fallen short of the glory of God. Hopefully, Karenga has realized the folly of his past and moved on to appreciate the wonders of a diversity of religious beliefs in America. America, what a wonderfully tolerant country. It is a place where even an Anti-American Marxist and "Doubting Thomas" professor with a violently troubled past can preach the spiritual nature of Kwanzaa at UCLA. God Bless America.

Reporter, you have said nothing whatsoever about the message of Kwanzaa nor of the practice of Kwanzaa in the United States. Further, you keep making the mistake of saying that Karenga taught at UCLA. He taught at Long Beach State. You're not making any cogent points that are relevant to the celebration.

Let me try to spell out an analogy for you. Imagine if you will that Catholic priests were found to be pedophiles. Your argument would be that Christianity is inseperable from those who preach it. Further, you are saying that since the leaders of churches are sinners, then all those who ever followed those leaders cannot separate the message from the messenger.

So what is the name of your pastor?

Dear Cobb, I am glad you asked for clarification on the UCLA matter. Karenga did preach and teach at UCLA, before leaving. He was working on a Ph.D when his organization shot and killed two men on the UCLA campus. He is currently a professor at Long Beach State.

It is hard to separate Kwanzaa from the founder Karenga. A quick search of the internet will show that the two are linked closely. Without being disrespectful to Jesus Christ and Christians, many supporters of Kwanzaa praise Karenga as a savior and cultural icon. I questioned this relationship on pro-Kwanzaa blogs, and there seems to be a tremendous amount of hostility toward anyone who tries to shed light on Karenga's past and the reasons for establishing Kwanzaa. Karenga's troubles at UCLA years ago and his imprisonment reveal a lot about Karenga and the formation of Kwanzaa.

"At the beginning of the 1960s, Karenga met Malcolm X and began to embrace Black nationalism. Following the Watts riots in 1965, he interrupted his doctoral studies at UCLA and joined the Black Power movement. During this time, he awarded himself the title "maulana", Swahili for "master teacher." He formed United Slaves, later called the U.S. Organization, an outspoken Black nationalist group."

"In 1969, the US Organization and the Black Panthers disagreed over who should head the new Afro-American Studies Center at UCLA. According to a Los Angeles Times article, Karenga and his supporters backed one candidate, the Panthers another. The Black Student Union set up a coalition to try to bring peace between the groups, which ended when US members George P. & Larry Joseph Stiner shot dead two members of the Black Panthers, John Jerome Huggins and Alprentice "Bunchy" Carter. The killing was dismissed by UCLA chancellor Charles E. Young as an unrelated incident."

"Time in Prison. In 1971 Karenga, Louis Smith, and Luz Maria Tamayo were convicted of felonious assault and false imprisonment for assaulting and torturing two women from the United States, Deborah Jones & Gail Davis. A May 14, 1971 article in the Los Angeles Times described the testimony of one of the women: "Deborah Jones, who once was given the Swahili title of an African queen, said she and Gail Davis were whipped with an electrical cord and beaten with a karate baton after being ordered to remove their clothes. She testified that a hot soldering iron was placed in Miss Davis' mouth and placed against Miss Davis' face and that one of her own big toes was tightened in a vise. Karenga, head of US, also put detergent and running hoses in their mouths, she said." They also were hit on the heads with toasters."

I have tried to be objective in my approach to Kwanzaa and Karenga. Hopefully, he has overcome his troubled past and moved on to higher ground. God's Redemption is a blessing. Karenga is an excellent writer and I am sure he has influenced people in a way that enhances their lives. If Kwanzaa is used to build self esteem and provide the motivation to live a productive life, Kwanzaa will be a positive force in America. I pray this is true.

I almost forgot, you asked for the name of my pastor. I would be glad to discuss my theology with you, if you will e-mail me the name of your pastor. Take care and may the Lord bless you always.

mild mannered distorter:

we're gonna have to get some points of clarification/elucidation is you're to continue this line of argument. these are not in any particular order.

first, what was the name of karenga's organization? are you sure? check your references. if this is your only source of data on mk, you should either diversify or desist.

second, let's assume you don't separate the event from the founder. do you know the practice of the man or the beliefs of the man today? for the past five, ten, fifteen, twenty years? has anything changed? are you casting aspersions and asking others to do the heavy lifting? in other words, is your "beef" current and timeless, or is it time-worn and anachronistics?

third, what role do you ascribe to the fibby (FBI) and the cointelpro operation in the violence between US and the BPP? certainly your research has suggested some significant role here. if not, please feel free to peruse your local library...something should turn up.

fourth, the complimentary language about mk may or may not be sincere, but the bottom line is that you've set up a house of straw seeking flames. do the research and answer your own questions before listing a series of semi-accurate events from 1971.

your lack of critical effort here is troubling. as is your confession that you "teach" black folk. a bit more elbow grease, a bit more integrity and you might surprise yourself.

Mr. Cobb,

I appreciate your passion, but presenting Kwanzaa tenets a la carte in a strawman fashion do not give the total concoction any validity.

Kwanzaa simply does not pass the smell test. Selling Kwanzaa is like selling the myth of Rosa Parks. Just one of many lies told in the so called "black community" designed to artificially create accomplisments where there are none thus diminishing real and contstructive accomplishments.

I woke up this morning and could not believe my eyes. The local FOX affiliate was doing a story on Kwanzaa and all they showed (and which is all is really is anyway) was a buch of silly @$$ black folk jumpin' around doing some dumb dances with drums as if this mess came from Africa.

It was repulsive and revolting.

For the record, I possess 2 degrees from Florida A&M University. One being a Sociology degree. Dude, I have been into the belly of the beast.

Have a great day!

Please post Karenga's repudiation of his racist past (or present). Please post any apologies and pleas for forgiveness and redemption.

Please post where he rejects socialism, racism and accepts Christianity as a legitimate religion and that God and His Son Jesus Christ are real?

Are you an Alpha?

You do know a sociology degree is nothing to shout about from the top of the rafters. There simply are not enough strong academics in the field. After all, your idea of a footnote is citing the name of author and the year the book was written. That's pretty consistent with your posts so far. You should really reign it in a bit - and head back to the library - hunt down a few page numbers, contextual citations and even a primary source or two. It would really strengthen your delivery of the curriculum you use and build strong research habits in your students. And whatever you do, dissuade them from the pseudo-science that masquerades as sociology.

I wonder that other degree is in. I hope it doesn't have anything to do with basketweaving. Besides, since you were so quick to put it out there, it must mean to you than the people who issued the degree. You've gotta relax about your credentials. You don't prove with where you studied or what skins you hold...you prove with skillz on the qwerty. So, settle down, do some heavy lifting and come back when you're ready.

Kwanzaa makes more sense to me than Christianity and Christmas. If this offends, sorry. There are some of us out here who have chosen alternate beliefs and they work for us. I revere my ancestors because they are more real and immediate to me than Jesus Christ. In Africa ancestor worship after centuries of disparagement and demonization by white missionaries is having a rebirth. In Brazil the syncretized African religion of Candomble which enslaved Africans kept alive has experienced a tsunami of revival. There are now 5,000 Candomble temples in Brazil. Candomble priests went to Brazil’s Supreme Court to have their religion recognized after Christians harassed their faith. Kwanzaa, whatever its origins is part of the worldwide African search to reclaim our identity and the fact that it has grown and is celebrated in countries all over the world testifies to its resonance among a people seeking their own rebirth. It will continue to grow despite its detractors. As for Lashawn Barber the less said the better, but there are still a few self-hating blacks who desperately seek white approval and patronage; call them the ‘psychic walking wounded.’

I only mentioned the Soc degree to point out an area of expertise. Those being Black Social Issues and I mentioned FAMU so you wouldn't use the typical charge of calling me a white or a sell-out or some other stupid label.

OK, how about an MBA in Production and Operations Management and a Marketing degree from the Univerisity of Florida's Warrington School of Business? Can I shout about that? LOL

I'll quit here. The rest of my CV might frighten you. LOL.

Maybe if I was a Black Studies professor with a criminal record teaching Negronics at Long Beach State you'd respect me more LOL!!

Maybe if I was a Black Studies professor with a criminal record teaching Negronics at Long Beach State you'd respect me more LOL!!

Happy Kwanzaa. Don't bust a whole in your drums.

Peace!

I know everything about Karenga. Even if you go to every one of the static websites that are "Officially" about Kwanzaa you'll find more material here. I have organized it for you to read under the category of Kwanzaa. I'm also going to continue to put more material here. It is astonishing how Americans continue to barf back personalities and call that a nuanced understanding (or the 'real truth') about history.

The US organization met on the property of Alfred Ligon, the Aquarian Center. It was one of a number of community groups organized to convert the Negro into the Black Man. Ligon, a metaphysicist of international repute, was in effect, the godfather of a large number of such activities and not incidently the proprietor of the first and largest black bookstore on the West Coast. Karenga was not the only thinker in the house, and it wasn't a bunch of idiot groupies calling themselves African names, that is to say that it wasn't at the beginning.

You cannot separate the origins of Kwanzaa from the context of the Black Power and Black Arts Movements in Los Angeles, and that is what the anti-Kwanzaans are attempting in this annual smear. They are saying nothing more than Karenga is a criminal and everything he was involved in was idiotic and criminal. I cannot get too upset that few people are good stewards of real black history, because I have my share to do. I was there.

Yes I'm an Alpha. Centennial year is coming up.

Whether or not Karenga rejects Socialism is besides the point. He was pro-black economic improvement. In 1966 the majority of economics professors in American universities were Socialists. Today none are. America was more socialist in the 60s than it is now - considering he wasn't educated in economics, one could hardly expect him to create anything in that regard of lasting significance. In fact, part of the whole point I am saying was that if there weren't a great deal of synergy between what various black consciousness and cultural nationalist groups were doing in Los Angeles at the time, Kwanzaa would have never gotten off the ground. Karenga didn't make Kwanzaa happen, Kwanzaa happened because hundreds of black families made it happen, and reducing that to snippets about the murder of Bunchy Carter and gang warfare is not only a distortion of history, but an insult to those black families who were there at the outset, including and especially mine.

From this Kappa to a most Noble Member of Alpha Phi Alpha. Happy Centennial "OH-SIX!"

Congratulations.

Do you think that maybe just maybe, the more history you post about Kwanzaa may be even more ammo for those who see it as a comical abomination?

History paints a nasty picture of Ronnie, but the other history which you deem so positive is repulsive and painful for many and not something they want to rehash and certainly not celebrated.

I think if there was (and there is not) the ability to accurately define a POSITIVE "black" culture, more Blacks would jump on board, but the fact remains that the present and commonly accepted definition of "Black culture" or "Black community" is not something people are actualy proud of nor should they be.

Hardly language and scholarship worthy of one who has crossed the burning sands of Phi Nu Pi...pick up your books, get back in the library and be quiet until you can come correct on this. This is beneath any "teacher" of black children...you can really do much better - or of course, you can continue to revel in the glamour of your college days...

That's an interesting observation Raymond. I wonder if you are among those who find nothing redeeming in black literature. I wonder if you are one of those who sees no connection between, say the music of Archie Shepp and the writing of LeRoi Jones. If you believe that there is no positive black culture worth speaking of, then your points about Kwanzaa are certainly taken with the appropriate grains of salt.

I don't believe that more blacks will 'jump on board'. Who hasn't heard of the Dance Theatre of Harlem? Just knowledge of their existence doesn't make one go. Knowledge of Alpha Phi Alpha doesn't make one pledge, and even all who pledge don't cross. And clearly not all who cross even agree. My expectations of blackfolks are that they will do what they do and need no convincing. That means you respect what's respectable. Kwanzaa is.

I hear that prayer and meditation are good for insecurity. Enough with the overwhelming (not) academic background. Show and prove or Step and move.

I think if there was (and there is not) the ability to accurately define a POSITIVE "black" culture, more Blacks would jump on board, but the fact remains that the present and commonly accepted definition of "Black culture" or "Black community" is not something people are actualy proud of nor should they be.

OK, for me, that says it all about where you are coming from.

Look, Cobb and Temple3 are challenging you. Temple3, specifically, is asking for citations to back up your claims.

So far, nada, nothing, zip, zero, zilch.

Dude, MAN UP!

Kwanzaa is comical at best. A joke. A sick caricature.

What is "black" literature as opposed to just plain old literature. Same with "black" history month. Why does it have to be labelled "black." Is it not history still without the label?

Cobb, you can tell me to pack it up and all of that other school yard sissy stuff all you want, BUT I REMAIN and I WILL TEACH. Regardless of whether you like the lesson. It goes both ways. You support kwanzaa and I will kill it.

My TEACHINGS convinced my local chapter of The 100 Black Men of Tampa Bay to quit sponsoring a kwanzaa themed event. We also are in the process of killing off the so-called "Juneteenth Celebration."

BOTH historically irrelevant to our true purpose.

Kwanzaa and Juneteenth. Too silly and divisive. Hurt fundraising activities and cheapened our brand.

OK, IF there truly exists a POSITIVE Black culture, then describe it.

RULES: If I can assign that same value to another racial demographic, it will be discounted. Must be unique to this group called "black people."

Well I say to hell with public Kwanzaa events too. Kwanzaa only works in intimate settings. That's the point of the Karamu. That's the point of the libations. That's the point of lighting candles. It's reflective and inspirational, not bombastic or expository.

Are you serious about this positive black culture thing? If so, then here is my assignment to you. Go buy Wynton Marsalis' Majesty of the Blues and play it end to end. Then read 'Premature Autopsies' on this website. Then read 'My Dungeon Shook' on this website. Then go to your library or bookstore and read 'Drylongso' by Gwaltney then 'Speech & Power' edited by Gerald Early.

Put those items in a new bookshelf in your living room. You will then have acquired about 1/80th of my library and earn the right to return to Cobb debate black culture with me.

Jeez. I wish I'd a pledged you... Invictus ain't got nothing on me.

You guys are not licensed by ANY authority, earthly or otherworldly to validate or invalidate what I see. We can spend all day citing the useless opinions of others to support our rantings. The fact remains that I was once a ding dong, kool-aid drinking, shufflin', chitlin eatin' planatation slave.

One day I realized that most of the Negroes telling me what I was or was not were complete idiots unworthy of my ear so for ANY of you to dare ask me to validate my beliefs down at your level is tantamount to me justifying my actions to my 7 year old child.

I really could care less whether or not you accept my message counter to the nonsense you CHOOSE to accept as some type of truth.

I have been asking the same questions over and over and over again and I have yet to receive even a BASIC attempt let alone a coherent answer to the question "What is the definition of Black?" or "What is positive about this so-called "Black culture." And no GPS system I know of can direct anyone to "the Black community."

The time for trying to unite people melanin in their skin under the same dumb, comical, useless and counterproductive constructs is not going to happen.

As Coloreds become more educated and affluent, we simply cannot reconciles that intelligence and common sense with the total BS generated by morons the likes of Jackson, Sharpton, Farrascum, Smiley and the Congressional Black Whiners.

Some of us choose to accept our INDIVIDUALITY and place in this nation as Americans FIRST! It does not mean we no longer believe racism exists. It simply means we will deal with it as it comes and not let it be pre-emptively and ineffectively dealt with by our sophomoric garbage.

Some of us are tired of the celebration of mediocrity and the reverance of failures and because of the unprecedented access to information available to us, we no longer have to accept the cacaphony of lunacy spewed by the so-called "keepers of blackness."

According to the Bureau of Labor and Statistics, Black men have approximately 70 years to live on this Earth before moving on to the afterlife and I'll be damned if I will allow two-bit jackasses like Corrine Brown and MAxine Waters speak for me or try to validate or invalidate my blackness.

The only way forward in my opinion is to embrace who we are and where we are from FIRST and I AM NOT A @#$%ING AFRICAN! Africa is just a place to me. Sorry if that hurts your feelings and causes you to llok down on me, but that it the reality you had better quickly learn to deal with.

I will never put a daishiki on my body, and where Kente cloth. I AM NOT FROM GHANA. LOL

At some point many others will wake up and see that are not obligated to belong to a "community" defined more by its crime rate, AIDS, misbehavior, bad language, counter-culture, violent music and 70% bastard production rate. Why the hell ANYONE would want to claim membership in that club is way beyond me.

"Black" and proud? No. American Christian and proud. Yes.

Well Raymond...at least we know you're not a DJ...you simply refuse to dig in the crates. then you gon come with stuff about what you stopped folks from doing in tampa. ooohhh. monte kiffin stopped the falcons - i'm more impressed with his work in tampa.

i see you don't have the skillz. i'll let you retire to the land of truisms, tautologies and sociology degrees. next time i see u in cyberspace, expect a beat down.

by the way, temple3 and cobb are not the same - though i would certainly agree with his baby step prescription for your cultural education...it's sophisticated material but you're oft-referenced education should equip you to get through it. i'm the one who thinks you should hand in the tools of trade - even if it is only 1 book.

You could never have pledged me. :-) I chose the CORRECT path remember? In fact, I have never seen an Alpha pledge.

By the way, did you actually pledge or are you one of those intakees? You look a lot younger than I. :-)

You started it it, but I'm just funnin' with ya bruh. Much respect to your organization. My father is an Alpha. I bet you think he failed with me don't you.

"The fact remains that I was once a ding dong, kool-aid drinking, shufflin', chitlin eatin' planatation slave."

That's a helluva confession. Since there is no evidence in your world - and only testimonial, preach on! Don't hurt your jackleg on the way down.

Temple,

And you keep on "keepin' it real" my "nig."

"One day I realized that most of the Negroes telling me what I was or was not were complete idiots unworthy of my ear so for ANY of you to dare ask me to validate my beliefs down at your level is tantamount to me justifying my actions to my 7 year old child."

What if the question was, "Tell me why you believe what you believe what you believe." A 7 year-old might simply say, "Why?"

By the way, since you won't be justifying yourself to your own 7-year old, let's hope you've accidentally come by the humility that will preclude you from directing the actions of other people's 7-year olds. And if you can't get to that, maybe you can justify yourself to the parents of other 7-year olds.

Small worlds for small minds. Dope beats for interesting times. May you find the crates with beats and books for eloquent rhymes and hooks...don't look too far, but in the crannies and nooks. Look, over yonder, it's a library.

so, raymond, you've proclaimed your superiority and now you use contemptible terminology like "nig" without being man enough to simply spell out the whole word. is your frustration so high and sense of personal power so low that you would resort to these "tactics." what is the purpose of going there. is this what you teach our children? to resort to terms like "nig" when they are frustrated and incapable of articulating their views. are you really this weak?? holla back brother man. your elevation may come against your will and without your knowledge, but it is possible - even today. i know you learned more on the pledge line than this. your dean would have smacked you have way across campus for some nonsense like this. how do you really get down??

Trust me. I did not spell out the word out of respect for this man's site. Don't know what his rules are on the use of certain language. If you have ever been over at Dellgines.com you would know the LAST thing I do is bite my tongue. Comprende?

Still waiting for you to "elevate" me. Have it. Give it your best shot. IF you make sense I will credit you.

"The fact remains that I was once a ding dong, kool-aid drinking, shufflin', chitlin eatin' planatation slave."

at this juncture, it might be more appropriate if you affixed this as a signature to your post - and removed any indication that this time period has passed. i would invite you to come into a deeper understanding of yourself - not based on melanin or cultural alienation...there is much work for you to do in the halls of learning. be not so arrogant in your rejection of frauds and hucksters that you reject the very discipline that is the cornerstone of intellectual liberation. your ceaseless ranting, over-reliance on CAPS, references to your education betray a profound level of insecurity that demands immediate attention. while you've selected the classroom as a hideout (children as passive recipients, parents as grateful caretakers, administrators as lax rubber stamps, co-educators as pliable co-signers), it's an obvious ploy that will have repercussions on your development. your growth will be stunted as a man, as an educator, and as a communicator. you're going to have to step your game up.

Temple,

I your so called intellect was made of gasoline, I doubt you'd have enough to fill up a piss-ant scooter and drive it half way around a dime.

If you want to play the ad hominem game play with someone else. You've got a better chance of sweetnin' the Atlantic Ocean with a 5lb bag od sugar than convincing me that you are any deeper than a plastic wading pool.

yeah raymond, you're way off topic here and running on your neighbors' nerves. I suggest you chill a bit - for the sake of focus on the matters at hand. I would also point you to negrorage.com, a brother who gets rather deeply into the existentials of blackness. I really don't have the inclination at the moment.

Temple,

You are the poster child for the very type of Negro I have been describing. Predictable as the noonday sun only lacking the illumination.

"Trust me. I did not spell out the word out of respect for this man's site. Don't know what his rules are on the use of certain language. If you have ever been over at Dellgines.com you would know the LAST thing I do is bite my tongue. Comprende?"

senor, you have not addressed the initial questions put to you. you have not addressed secondary questions put to you. you have launched personal attacks and use the single most pernicious word in the english language (with respect to black folk). you are a man in need of healing. if you not embarassed at such naked conduct in the face of civilized discourse, your needs may be more profound than even a good hazing can cure. quite frankly, your behavior epitomizes that very behavior you've proclaimed as part of your past. it's like running into Kirk Franklin at the Rolex (now go 'head and front like you don't know 'bout the Rolex.)

Actually it was suggested that I visit here. I am returning where I came and will leave you gentlemen to continue your pity party.

I do thank you for the free speech opportunity and wish you and your family all the best in the New Year!

Take care and may God bless you all!!!

"nig" - "negro"

Where do you get this stuff? How much contempt to you really have deep down inside? Let it out. Let it out. Want a cyber hug?

Taking flight is only appropriate. Proclamation, insults...not a single demonstration of fact. Next.

Sorry, guys, we noticed raymond's door was opened but he wasn't inside. We'll try not to let it happen again.

Raymond! Get back on your meds right now! You are becoming too shrill!

Without having all of the gory details concerning Dr.Karenga, I began the celebration of Kwanzaa many years ago because of its principles which define a better community for African Americans. It never replaced Jesus, or celebrating Christmas. That wasn't its intent.

However, as a good Christian, I have studied at length, the history of Noah (who got drunk); Abraham (who cheated on his wife); Lot, who had sex with his own daughters, Moses (who killed in anger); David (who took someone else's wife after setting the husband up), Matthew who used to collect corrupt taxes, Peter who failed to keep his word to Jesus--and later cut off someone's ear, Judas who was a real sell-out,and Saul (who incidentally changed his name to Paul) who killed and tortured every Christian (perhaps even Stephen) he could get his hands on! Yet, with each and every one of these people, I've read about, it is very easy for me to separate their human failure from the higher truth that transcends their experience and then helps me grow in my own experience of being a Christian.

Just as it is imperative to always look for truth, and goodness where it can be found (from the Bible)---it is just as imperative that I look for truth and goodness within society where it can be found. I don't have to become a socialist to observe Kwanzaa anymore than I have to lop off someone's ear because they don't respect Jesus!

If we look to the early crusades, inquisitions,the witch burnings, and all the things so-called devout people have done in the name of Christianity, it certainly requires an ability to distinguish between early church leaders and where Christian thought must be finally lodged. Why, then, is it so terribly difficult to separate people, their pasts, and principles--when it comes to the goodness of Kwanzaa? Is that not what we have done for religion? Particularly, Christainity?

It is understood that people have to identify with a similar-to-themself group. The problem with Kwanzaa is "re-segregating" the "black" community from others. Disreguarding the Felony conviction, the founder is a very, very intelligent man. It was founded during the Civil Right's movement. Current generations would not see BLACK and WHITE if it were not so socially classified as so. Upon "Kwanzaa"'s creation, the founder was in a state of a psychologially imbalance, catagorigized as a Parinoid-Schizophrenic; and heavily involved with the Civil Rights. Our current national community has no use for this "holiday". Its focus is only to include one race, those dirived from the days of "segregation", and not to forget slavery ended over One-hundred years ago. I am young and have always stopped racial classification between those around me. We are all people, i classify others by their name, mine is Dan.

It is understood that people have to identify with a similar-to-themself group. The problem with Kwanzaa is "re-segregating" the "black" community from others. Disreguarding the Felony conviction, the founder is a very, very intelligent man. It was founded during the Civil Right's movement. Current generations would not see BLACK and WHITE if it were not so socially classified as so. Upon "Kwanzaa"'s creation, the founder was in a state of a psychologially imbalance, catagorigized as a Parinoid-Schizophrenic; and heavily involved with the Civil Rights. Our current national community has no use for this "holiday". Its focus is only to include one race, those dirived from the days of "segregation", and not to forget slavery ended over One-hundred years ago. I am young and have always stopped racial classification between those around me. We are all people, i classify others by their name, mine is Dan.

It is understood that people have to identify with a similar-to-themself group. The problem with Kwanzaa is "re-segregating" the "black" community from others. Disreguarding the Felony conviction, the founder is a very, very intelligent man. It was founded during the Civil Right's movement. Current generations would not see BLACK and WHITE if it were not so socially classified as so. Upon "Kwanzaa"'s creation, the founder was in a state of a psychologially imbalance, catagorigized as a Parinoid-Schizophrenic; and heavily involved with the Civil Rights. Our current national community has no use for this "holiday". Its focus is only to include one race, those dirived from the days of "segregation", and not to forget slavery ended over One-hundred years ago. I am young and have always stopped racial classification between those around me. We are all people, i classify others by their name, mine is Dan.

I wonder what that evidence of paranoid schizophrenia looks like. That's gotta be one helluva report. Hmmm. State psychologists interviews subject who is allegedly in the employ of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. His employer is engaged in a highly structured infiltration, disinformation campaign against numerous armed groups. Subject is allegedly engaged in counterespionage and fears for his life if identified as such. Subject is aware that his employer (and its agents) were complicit in the deaths of national black leadership. Subject is aware that employer (and its sister agencies) were complicit in the assassination and assassination plots against other leaders with a similar ideology (Lumumba, Castro, etc.) Subject has intimate awareness of tactics of alleged employer. What does paranoid schizophrenia look like in this situation? The only place language like that has any meaning is on the decontextualized pages of the Los Angeles Times. In the real world, it's as meaningful and as accurate as saying, "Ice is pretty. Heat melts ice. Heat is bad."

One of these days, Dan, you may decide to introduce a new measure of rigor to your thought process. I'm not suggesting you're entirely incorrect nor am I suggesting that you don't have a reasoned position. I am suggesting that your point should be internally consistent and defensible. It's not. It could be - with a new measure of rigor. Happy New Year.

Constructing ad hominem arguments is difficult because they don't stand logical scrutiny and they tend to create a culture of demonization. It is clear that even the worst of Karenga's behavior is not worse than that of many revered figures. What, then, is the real purpose of demonization? If it is not logical (bad founder = bad idea) and is not predicated on a consistent morality (Karenga bad = Bad Kwanzaa, Paul bad = bad Christianity), is it much more than a marketing ploy?

And if it is marketing, what are you selling? Is it simply the idea that cultural identification by black folk with any tradition that is not explicitly christian and/or american is bad form? that sounds like politics. that sounds like ideology masquerading as faith. that sounds a lot like "follow me or go to hell, literally." admittedly, that is a Christian position, but you can see how, generally speaking, this might be a turn off.

Happened across this page during an internet search on Kwanzaa. I'm posting this more to Cobb than others, because of his association with the origination of this holiday.

I'm confused. Some claims are that Kwanzaa is a religion, others don't. Some claim this is a Black-only occasion, and universal by others. I've read that it's a promotion against Whites, Christianity, the government, etc... Even its founder appears to have shifted around his reasoning behind Kwanzaa over the past 30 years.

What is it?

As a White male from a middle-class background, I can't say that Kwanzaa has ever been much of a topic of conversation around the dinner table. But, as someone mentioned above, this time of year for several years now, Kwanzaa jumps into the media limelight and stirs emotions, both pro and con.

So far, my take is this: Kwanzaa is not a religion; is not an actual African holiday in itself, but instead created from various cultural practices in mainly Eastern African countries; its alleged founder is not someone who should be looked upon with reverence or respect, however, being a separate issue from the tenets of Kwanzaa; and that the seven principles, minus the SLA's interpretation, are something that applies universally and is actually found across pretty much all cultures.

Speaking of Karenga, I've noticed quite a few sites depicting the creation of Kwanzaa and the SLA as either coinciding or Kwanzaa stemming from the SLA's principles. However, looking at a timeline, it appears that Kwanzaa was formed in 1966 and the SLA sometime in the early 70's. Is that right?

Kwanzaa was intented to replace (crass, commercial) Christmas. The 'Eastern African' connection is only related to the use of the Swahili language which was the official language of Kenya under it's first black president. The Black Power movement in the US was connected to the Pan African Movement and thusly a set of Pan African symbols were adopted including the Red Black & Green flag and the Swahili language.

For those of you who don't know, lots of Swahili was used in marketing campaigns for black oriented products of the time, most notably Afro Sheen hair care. Their slogan was 'Watu Wazuri use Afro Sheen' (Beautiful People use Afro Sheen). Neither that, nor Kwanzaa nor lyrics from Stevie Wonder songs had so much to do with 'Eastern African Countries' as significant of anything other than the fact that African Americans, then known as Negroes were acknowledging the possibilities of associating themselves with a greater context than simply second-class Americans - ie. with Africa.

Now that I think of it, I wouldn't be surprised if Coulter comes up with some new twisted spin on the symbolism of the US emblem. At any rate, I was not aware of any connection between the Nguzo Saba and the SLA.

It's not so surprising that very little of what's said about Kwanzaa makes sense, and that is because of the attempt to smear it takes it out of the context of the Black Power, Black Arts, and Black Consciousness movements. When you realize and recognize that all of those efforts were to convert the Negro, it becomes more clear. As well, since all of those values are associated with independent people, there isn't much controversy to speak of except from two fronts. There are basically folks who believe that blackfolks shouldn't have anything separate or apart from anyone else, and there are evangelist Christians who believe anything that competes with Christmas and Christianity for hearts and minds is evil.

I couldn't resist. One last thought on kwanzaa (unworthy of capitalization):

If the best argument for accepting kwanzaa is that one should look at what it symbolizes now as opposed to who founded it and why it was founded, then I think I am in safe territory when I say you people have NO OPPOSITION WHATSOEVER to the display and wear and flying of the Confederate Battle Flag.

I mean, today it symbolizes heritage and not hate. Right?

Proof that all analogies fail. But fwiw, I always enjoyed the Dukes of Hazzard.

Nobody is trying to fly the Kwanzaa flag over a state capitol. But what you put on your bumper sticker or on your property is your business.

Nevertheless, there is never a good reason to distort the facts of history. That's what I demand.

Good. At least you, one of the few is intellectually honest on the issue.

Somehow I don't think most kwanzaa celebrants would accept you thinking the Confederate Flag is so inert.

I don't know how many Kwanzaans are upper middle class, and therefore essentially unassailable by rednecks. If I felt vulnerable to rednecks and other low class racists, maybe my opinion would be different.

While I agree that some are opposed to the notion of a "Black Holiday," I feel that for most, it's due to a sense that it has become increasingly imposed upon our national culture, along with Cinco de Mayo and such. However, for radical Christians to proclaim that Kwanzaa is an affront to the faith, but a fat, old, White man riding in a flying sled and squeezing down your chimney once a year is not as bad... sort of leaves me scratching my head. Yes, he was a real person, but passed out treats to children around the 14th century to celebrate the birth of Christ. That's about it, aside from people fighting over bones after he died.

It's true that we celebrate semi-secular holidays of European origin already, ie. St. Patricks Day, but I'm not aware of them being a requirement in schools and workplace. Ironically, there's plenty of misinformation about those holidays as well. All true Irish do not actually have red hair, nor do they chase leprechauns.lol

In a nutshell, I'd say that most people of all backgrounds in this country really aren't that opposed to Kwanzaa or its celebration by other, just so long as its not in their face. This probably has more to do with the media and columnists, such as Coulter, who use the debate for drawing attention.

By the way, the connection with Nguzo Saba and SLA can be found here, I believe:

Question: Since the vast majority of Africans brought to this continent are of West African origin, why not choose a language from that region?

In regard to the Confederate flag, it actually seems to be a pretty good analogy, IMO. Reason being, the flag's representation of oppression is only one aspect among many that it stood for. It also symbolised the authority of the State to manage its internal affairs without Federal intervention. This, at time when most citizens of this country had a much stronger connection to their state than to the federal State. If you really want to dig into it, take Robert Edward Lee, aka. General Lee, who wrote on several occasions prior to the Civil War that he disagreed with slavery and with secession, and wanted nothing to do with fighting his own countrymen. Jefferson Davis was another reluctant participant, ironically. To say that the Confederate flag only symbolizes hatred and oppression is about as valid as saying Kwanzaa is only about hatred towards Whites and White culture. However, it does symbolize a defeated rebellion and has no place being displayed on a public building, outside of being a museum. I also disagree with people flying flags of other countries in deference to our own, ie. Mexican, Brazilian, Italian, etc.

Well, lets see. Karenga at his absolute most deadly might be responsible for hmm, say 15 people. That would include anybody killed by the SLA. How about General Lee?

The Battle Flag was literally that. The banner under which tens of thousands of men with rifles, cannon and warships fought to the death. They killed over 110,000 soldiers.

Like I said. The analogy is broken.

As for Swahili, I don't know how to make it any clearer than this: Swahili is to Africa as Latin is to Europe. It doesn't matter what part of Africa.

the flag's representation of oppression is only one aspect among many that it stood for. It also symbolised the authority of the State to manage its internal affairs, specifically, to own slaves.

I'm guessing that if the southern states were fighting mainly for their right to own licquor, station wagons, iPods or sea lions, 11% of the US' population probably wouldn't have a problem with this 'symbol' as they now do.

Do what you like, I celebrate Kwanzaa because I like the spiritual meaning that it conveys, I think we as a people have the right to determine what we want to accept as the things that we value as a people. To the ones(sell out blacks in particular) who don't want any part of the celebration, do Christmas or whatever it is you do, but don't try to convince me that the things that I believe is wrong. I have eyes and a mind that can think for itself, I don't need you or the likes of you to think for me. To the ones that is white, oriental, latino, ect. mind your own business, because you have enough problem on your own plate to tend with.